(2 Dec 23 at 11:52pm)[DEFN] Sentinel Wrote: You are right that things seem same-y. I have no counter-point to you saying it just seems like beating a dead horse, where change is constantly promised, but seemingly none delivered.
But I can tell you in good faith, this time is different. You can ask people in overlook or rebel leadership about the shift in mindsets over the last 4 months or so.
I am so confident in this fact, that I will give you an actual estimate for when you start to see it occur. Within the month of December, you will start to see changes take place in the combine faction
While I am thankful to hear this, I feel like SU is still a flawed class, and will continue discussing it's current shortcomings, as I still feel like it is unenjoyable to multiple of its players and that the current role it is trying to shift into is not the same role that the people who joined are trying to fill.
(2 Dec 23 at 11:52pm)[DEFN] Sentinel Wrote: You are right that things seem same-y. I have no counter-point to you saying it just seems like beating a dead horse, where change is constantly promised, but seemingly none delivered.
But I can tell you in good faith, this time is different. You can ask people in overlook or rebel leadership about the shift in mindsets over the last 4 months or so.
I am so confident in this fact, that I will give you an actual estimate for when you start to see it occur. Within the month of December, you will start to see changes take place in the combine faction
Can you elaborate on what these changes will consist of? I've noticed at least recently that a lot of the changes are out of the blue with no warning. It'd be nice to have some transparency regarding these things. Otherwise, im looking forward to it.
+1, SU needs a rework, would be even better if Combine Overlook and Rebel Leadership discussed about it.
SU is fun, the concept of infiltrating a base and performing duties that only your class is allowed too is great, but, sometimes, I wish we could be like MACE and perform a direct support role on the battlefield, MACE units may enter the battlefield and support their allies by flanking rebels with little to no coordination(besides squads), SU units on the other hand must write in team chat or communicate with their whole team to perform a push so they can use their disguise(granted they weren't killed or id checked prior) and even then, time is essence in this gamemode, SU class is about mobility, infiltration and TIME, a proper and coordinated push takes time to set up and sometimes time is not on SU's side.
"SU/MACE is an infiltration class, not a frontline soldier!" - While, yes, this is true, MACE can just be the key factor of a Combine push winning on the frontlines, SU's should be able to do that without big resctritions imposed by Staff and IC officers.
MACE's kit circles around their cloak tool, it is their bread and butter, and if they don't use it, they aren't better than an UNION.
SU's kit circles around the disguise kit, but how am I gonna use it when I feel discouraged to do so(by tons of SU and RP roles) and the lack of an active role on the battlefield once I'm done with my objective(once you infil and perform your mission, you're stuck with your disguise until you die by being found out by the enemy).
TL;DR: MACE/SU are infiltration roles, although MACE can just perform frontline duties and be a keyfactor to Combine victory, SU's on the other hand are actively resctricted since their kit envolves INFILTRATION, LUCK and DECEPTION in order to perform their primary function, and they're heavily enforced/expected to not screw up, in not doing so, they're doomed.
(3 Dec 23 at 7:53am)9_WILLIAN-GHZT_1 Wrote: +1, SU needs a rework, would be even better if Combine Overlook and Rebel Leadership discussed about it.
SU is fun, the concept of infiltrating a base and performing duties that only your class is allowed too is great, but, sometimes, I wish we could be like MACE and perform a direct support role on the battlefield, MACE units may enter the battlefield and support their allies by flanking rebels with little to no coordination(besides squads), SU units on the other hand must write in team chat or communicate with their whole team to perform a push so they can use their disguise(granted they weren't killed or id checked prior) and even then, time is essence in this gamemode, SU class is about mobility, infiltration and TIME, a proper and coordinated push takes time to set up and sometimes time is not on SU's side.
"SU/MACE is an infiltration class, not a frontline soldier!" - While, yes, this is true, MACE can just be the key factor of a Combine push winning on the frontlines, SU's should be able to do that without big resctritions imposed by Staff and IC officers.
MACE's kit circles around their cloak tool, it is their bread and butter, and if they don't use it, they aren't better than an UNION.
SU's kit circles around the disguise kit, but how am I gonna use it when I feel discouraged to do so(by tons of SU and RP roles) and the lack of an active role on the battlefield once I'm done with my objective(once you infil and perform your mission, you're stuck with your disguise until you die by being found out by the enemy).
TL;DR: MACE/SU are infiltration roles, although MACE can just perform frontline duties and be a keyfactor to Combine victory, SU's on the other hand are actively resctricted since their kit envolves INFILTRATION, LUCK and DECEPTION in order to perform their primary function, and they're heavily enforced/expected to not screw up, in not doing so, they're doomed.
This is a much better worded way of trying to get the point I was saying across. It's a very difficult situation to find a solution in, as giving SU any kit that would be useful on field reignites balancing arguments and proposes more IC rules and restrictions (the amount of time SU co's explain rules to you can be half as long as the tryout OR MORE), reducing disguise kit restrictions would reignite arguments about run n gun, etc.
I've only been around for a couple of years so I don't know all about how SU was in the past. However, I think a balanced mix of new and slightly less new, for the purpose of making the class more fun in the field, would be to bring a middle ground between what we have now and what we had a little while ago. Something between "you can only fire your gun in a coordinated attack" and "the moment they see you and decide not to shoot you, you are blended in and can open fire."
My idea is that instead of waiting for other rebels to push, the SU can, after successfully blending in for some period of time, open fire in a combine-defended point. They can also do things like sneak up on a CROSS/RANGER and take them out. Maybe SUs can have a pistol by default that they can use for this and other things, some of which might otherwise fall under Run n' Gun(which I will call RnG from here on out) if a more powerful primary weapon were used instead. I'm thinking something like the P226, a weaker pistol with neither the ROF of an autopistol or the damage per shot of a high caliber pistol, that they can use freely while disguised. The statistical disadvantage of the weapon would keep the engagement balanced with the surprise element, enabling an optional somewhat MACE-like playstyle in the field if blending into a group isn't an option or if taking out a key enemy on the field would be more beneficial without getting CK'd for RnG.
This is the opinion of someone who plays both as an SU and against them.
(7 Dec 23 at 10:25pm)Rendragon Wrote: I've only been around for a couple of years so I don't know all about how SU was in the past. However, I think a balanced mix of new and slightly less new, for the purpose of making the class more fun in the field, would be to bring a middle ground between what we have now and what we had a little while ago. Something between "you can only fire your gun in a coordinated attack" and "the moment they see you and decide not to shoot you, you are blended in and can open fire."
My idea is that instead of waiting for other rebels to push, the SU can, after successfully blending in for some period of time, open fire in a combine-defended point. They can also do things like sneak up on a CROSS/RANGER and take them out. Maybe SUs can have a pistol by default that they can use for this and other things, some of which might otherwise fall under Run n' Gun(which I will call RnG from here on out) if a more powerful primary weapon were used instead. I'm thinking something like the P226, a weaker pistol with neither the ROF of an autopistol or the damage per shot of a high caliber pistol, that they can use freely while disguised. The statistical disadvantage of the weapon would keep the engagement balanced with the surprise element, enabling an optional somewhat MACE-like playstyle in the field if blending into a group isn't an option or if taking out a key enemy on the field would be more beneficial without getting CK'd for RnG.
This is the opinion of someone who plays both as an SU and against them.
I feel like your idea with flanking & sneaking up on combine points was exactly what SU was before the change. Honestly I think SU compared to mace was balanced before the change. I didnt see many people complaining about RnG either. However I was an SU when the change happened so maybe I wasnt really paying much attention.
While I am thankful to hear this, I feel like SU is still a flawed class, and will continue discussing it's current shortcomings, as I still feel like it is unenjoyable to multiple of its players and that the current role it is trying to shift into is not the same role that the people who joined are trying to fill.
Can you elaborate on what these changes will consist of? I've noticed at least recently that a lot of the changes are out of the blue with no warning. It'd be nice to have some transparency regarding these things. Otherwise, im looking forward to it.
SU is fun, the concept of infiltrating a base and performing duties that only your class is allowed too is great, but, sometimes, I wish we could be like MACE and perform a direct support role on the battlefield, MACE units may enter the battlefield and support their allies by flanking rebels with little to no coordination(besides squads), SU units on the other hand must write in team chat or communicate with their whole team to perform a push so they can use their disguise(granted they weren't killed or id checked prior) and even then, time is essence in this gamemode, SU class is about mobility, infiltration and TIME, a proper and coordinated push takes time to set up and sometimes time is not on SU's side.
"SU/MACE is an infiltration class, not a frontline soldier!" - While, yes, this is true, MACE can just be the key factor of a Combine push winning on the frontlines, SU's should be able to do that without big resctritions imposed by Staff and IC officers.
MACE's kit circles around their cloak tool, it is their bread and butter, and if they don't use it, they aren't better than an UNION.
SU's kit circles around the disguise kit, but how am I gonna use it when I feel discouraged to do so(by tons of SU and RP roles) and the lack of an active role on the battlefield once I'm done with my objective(once you infil and perform your mission, you're stuck with your disguise until you die by being found out by the enemy).
TL;DR: MACE/SU are infiltration roles, although MACE can just perform frontline duties and be a keyfactor to Combine victory, SU's on the other hand are actively resctricted since their kit envolves INFILTRATION, LUCK and DECEPTION in order to perform their primary function, and they're heavily enforced/expected to not screw up, in not doing so, they're doomed.
My idea is that instead of waiting for other rebels to push, the SU can, after successfully blending in for some period of time, open fire in a combine-defended point. They can also do things like sneak up on a CROSS/RANGER and take them out. Maybe SUs can have a pistol by default that they can use for this and other things, some of which might otherwise fall under Run n' Gun(which I will call RnG from here on out) if a more powerful primary weapon were used instead. I'm thinking something like the P226, a weaker pistol with neither the ROF of an autopistol or the damage per shot of a high caliber pistol, that they can use freely while disguised. The statistical disadvantage of the weapon would keep the engagement balanced with the surprise element, enabling an optional somewhat MACE-like playstyle in the field if blending into a group isn't an option or if taking out a key enemy on the field would be more beneficial without getting CK'd for RnG.
This is the opinion of someone who plays both as an SU and against them.
I feel like your idea with flanking & sneaking up on combine points was exactly what SU was before the change. Honestly I think SU compared to mace was balanced before the change. I didnt see many people complaining about RnG either. However I was an SU when the change happened so maybe I wasnt really paying much attention.